Author Topic: Fighting system : open discussion  (Read 3856 times)

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Fighting system : open discussion
« on: December 27, 2014, 04:49:56 pm »
I'm using this as a placeholder to throw all ideas I had about the fighting system.
This is open to all ideas! Permanent brainstorming!


Indy References :
- I assume you all know LastCrusade (LC) and Fate of Atlantis (FoA) 's system : you can "reload" your punches, walk back and forth. It's always been a bit messy and confusing. The action wasn't easy to read.
- If you look at this video you have an early version of FoY's system : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4oh9oS1eYU
What we can tell from that video:
- it seems much better (the action is easier to read)
- it seems moderately tactical (there is no visual hint of the nazi preparing a punch, and he seems to protect himself or punch a bit randomly BUT it might be because that specific nazi is hard to beat. The animation does give it away when Indy gets ready to punch)
- there seems to be a notion of combo (left/right/left punches by Indy)
- the length of the arm seems to be important (the nazi can punch from further away)

My personal reference is Prince of Persia and PoP 2.
That's because the combat system is very simple (you can only attacke or guard yourself) but clever : each enemy has a different behavior.
- The "flying heads" are too far to be hit, but attack very quickly  so that you have a very small window to hit them when they charge you.
- The "eagle headed men" attack just like you but they can block your attack and use the momentum to immediately attack you back. You have a very small window to guard yourself when it happens.
- etc.

Requirements :
- Keep it simple
- It must be a "tap" system, to work with mobile devices. Possibly tap and hold. No left-click/right-click.

What I suggest :
- Indy can guard himself, but, just like in PoP, it lasts only briefly (he brings his fists up or something). It must be done explicitely by the player.
- He can walk step by step backwards or forwards.
- When he attacks, there is a window when he can get hit
- NEW: Indy can have short-range/long-range attacks. Short range attacks are just a regular punches. Long-range attacks are Indy running towards the enemy to give a big blow, but he's more vulnerable when that happens. The enemy can make him trip or knee-punch him or something. The enemy can also have long-range attacks. Long-range attacks are a bit like "loaded" attacks.
- NEW: there are some "special" attacks symbolized by an icon at the bottom of the screen. The main one would be "whip attack". But those are more of a point-n-click element :
    - they don't always work (a muscular nazi can grap the whip, pull it, and Indy ends up with his face in the dirt)
    - they can interact with the background (e.g. pull a lever, make an icicle fall, block a turbine, etc.). They work only in specific  locations that the player must discover (there's an element of tiral and error)
    - they are optional (if the player finds them he wins the fight more easily but he can go the hard way with only punching)

Controls :
- As I said everything must be tapped-controlled, and I don't like the idea of some buttons at the bottom of the screen, symbolizing the keyboard arrows. I'd rather have some buttons around the player : one to make him walk forward, one to make him walk backwards, etc.
- We can display all the buttons all the time OR we can make some of them appear or disappear depending on the possible moves at a given time (for example: the "guard" button disappears temporarily when Indy has justhit the "punch" button, until Indy is able to guard himself again). That introduces a (light) rythm-game aspect, to make the mini-game more like some epic action where the player always have to be aware of what combos he can make at a given time. The player is aware that he must "choreograph" his fight, like in fighting games. It empowers him more.

View
Everything I've described above can be seen from the side (with regular-sized characters)
OR
It can be seen from behind Indy or slightly from the side, with Indy on the foreground and the enemy facing the camera, int he background.

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 04:03:44 pm »
We should consider Nidhogg as an inspiration for the simple yet satisfying game mechanics

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 09:46:08 am »
Amélie I love your avatar. Y U NO FINISH SPRITES? :D

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2015, 11:53:58 am »
Amélie, these are very nice sprites. But we don't have a chapter set in Flagstaff in 1926 ...???

Offline selmiak

  • incredible
  • Project Tech-Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
    • View Profile
    • selmiak's webseite
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 11:39:26 pm »
Who are you talking to? :P

Amelie, please don't delete everything so fast. Everyone wants to see it, especially your nice sprites! :hat:

Offline selmiak

  • incredible
  • Project Tech-Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
    • View Profile
    • selmiak's webseite
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 11:27:20 pm »
Soorrryy - it's just me being me  ::)


Sprites get some more coating, and be posted again, promised.

nice soldier sprites! Which one of them is the fitting size?

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 11:15:51 am »
Note to self : study more the fight system in the "South Park" games.

There are two types of blows : 1) the ones that don't do damage but push the enemies back (to gain some time (or charge?) 2) the ones that actually do damage.
When the enemies are within distance they can hit you.


Maybe type (1) could rely on Indy's limited special tricks (whip, background interaction, or "pocket sand" tricks)


Offline doctorfargo

  • Project Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1707
  • The Man with the Hat is Back in Action...
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 07:33:34 pm »
Maybe type (1) could rely on Indy's limited special tricks (whip, background interaction, or "pocket sand" tricks)

Seeing Indy's whip in a fight would be neat.

Offline selmiak

  • incredible
  • Project Tech-Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
    • View Profile
    • selmiak's webseite
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 05:27:53 pm »
What would Indy be without a big fistfight. Yeah, it would be very boring!
But in the end, fistfights in adventures end up being button mashing no matter what, and very little tactic is involved. And I love playing tekken ;)

So we should make fistfights good or just screw it.


here is my idea of a good fighting system:

start slow with easy fights and make it harder. And give the player the ability to upgrade indys skills by winning a fight at the beginning and earning XP (or indy points) like in a rpg. but you can invest them in indys strength, speed and defense (and some more values maybe, maybe split speed in feet speed (how fast indy can backstep and dodge a punch) and arm speed (how fast he can punch the enemy)
These XP or INDY POINTS are actually like orichalcum beads or dog tags or gold coins from the 7cog the defeated soldiers drop. you pick this glowing item up and place it on a chart (on a gui) to level up. These can be removed and put to another skill to adapt to the current enemy and his fighting style. speaking of this...


then we put different enemies in indys way, many footsoldiers here and there... footsoldiers are slow and easy to grind and earn xp.

then there are bosses. all of them have different fighting styles
One maybe has a slow but deadly punch. you can block 2 of these punches then you are done. so you have to be fast (level up your speed skill) and backstep at the right time, step towards him and punch him, he punches his mean punch again, you either backstep or lose half your health, then repeat your attack pattern to win this minigame.

another boss immediately fires like 6 punches at you without stopping, you can't backstep them, you have to block. after the 6 punches he stops, breathes heavily in a cool exhausted breathing animation, wipes his forehead, then chases indy to hit him and fires another 6 punches and so on. And if your defense is not skilled enough you KO after 2 rounds of his fistfire. So you have to level up your defense...

another woman nazi boss (lol, as if ever elsa...) is very fast but not very strong, dances around indy back and forth and punchs fast but not very strong. you have to time it right and have the strength attribute leveled up to hit her with one big punch.

we make up some more fighting styles while we implement these mentioned above and even the footsoldiers become tougher elite soldiers further down the story.


Special tricks, except for the whip trick, should be (l)earned, by defeating enemies and copying their style and also by finding hidden secret books in barnett or so.



so far so good, this is my idea of a cool and engaging fighting system, but here is the big BUT:
Not everyone likes this, this is an adventure game and no rpg brawler, we have to give the option to skip the fights or make it FOA style possible to circumvent the fight with puzzles.
circumventing the fights makes the whole concept of the fights useless... kinda, except for having a cool fighting system in a cool indy jones game, which is good enough a reason to do it for me  8) :hat:
AND does out story offer enough room for fights and more 'levels' and bosses to make it interesting to even have this kind of fight system. we probably would have to add even more story and puzzles, but the same reason of cool applies here ...


love you too, bitches, please share your thoughts on this :)

Offline selmiak

  • incredible
  • Project Tech-Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
    • View Profile
    • selmiak's webseite
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2017, 09:07:57 pm »
I like this idea, any thoughts on it?

Online Tremulas

  • Scripter
  • *****
  • Posts: 302
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 08:11:21 am »
I also like it and I am about to comment it once I find some spare time BUT implementing all the time new ideas and puzzles and scenario at the end of 2017 requires a lot of people to pass them into the game and we have a serious lack of hands. I do not want to  grouse all the time but instead of finding more people to help, we become less and less.


Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 02:31:34 pm »
Let's use technical terms, to avoid confusing ourselves :

- I like the idea of boss patterns very much (except for the fact that it forces us to make the fighting area pseudo-3D, if there's a "chase")
- I like the idea of the cool down mechanics too.
- I don't like the idea of RPG-Indy and XP-based upgrade trees so much. I find it awkward as it is presented here. When would you buy your new abilities? There would be a shop-like popup window appearing after each fight?
Alternative : Indy learns some "dirty tricks" by witnessing them from oponents (e.g. "sand in the eyes"). He needs to know them all to win some fights. Which brings us back to the simple "sword fight grinding system" of SoMI, but with a tactical aspect (use the trick at the right time).


PS: One of the backgrounds of Fountain of Youth shows that they've recycled the idea of Indy being able to practice fights in Barnett on the boxing ring (built-in tutorial). Dammit, that was just perfect, we should have thought about it.


Offline selmiak

  • incredible
  • Project Tech-Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
    • View Profile
    • selmiak's webseite
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 07:06:24 pm »
what do you mean with pseude 3D? How would that help? Backwards and forewards should suffice. in most beat em ups you can jump over the enemy but that would be too much and pull me out of the illusion of playing an indy game imho.

cool down? Like charging your punch?

I like the rpg like skill managament. yeah, you see your XP after each fight and in case you unlocked something you can set it right there and get a notification and a button that links to the skill tree menu gui.

Dirty tricks are also cool. biting could be another one. And we can influence the grinding time by only bringing the enemies that have tricksthe player hasn't unlocked yet.


we are making an indy fan game too, we can also use a barnet sparring box ring... :P

Offline jeancallisti

  • Lead Artist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 07:03:12 pm »
Backwards and forewards should suffice.

OK. Yes, indeed, if we're clever about it that should suffice.

Offline Blackjoni

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I love Indy
    • View Profile
Re: Fighting system : open discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 10:33:57 am »
Advice to access the system still has problems, then we still have questions.